The Always More Podcast: When Does "Life" Begin?

On The Always More Podcast, they discuss my article 'When does “life” begin? When it comes to abortion, it depends on what you mean by "life"':

Kevin Drum's "Liberals really suck at defending abortion":

 From Kevin Drum's post "Liberals really suck at defending abortion":

 Conservatives talk endlessly about how abortion snuffs out a human life. That's the whole magilla. But if you read only among liberals, you might not even know this is an issue. We simply don't talk about it.

Why? I don't know how it polls or what effect it has on most people, but it has to be addressed if we want to win the war for public opinion. There are just too many people who care about this and need to hear simple, convincing arguments that a fetus isn't a human life in any reasonable sense of the term. We're cowards if we aren't willing to take that on.

"When does life begin?" The "Always More" podcast

 Some discussion of my Salon article here on "when does life begin?" from the "Always More" podcast

@alwaysmorepodcast “When does life begin” according to Dr. Nathan Nobis. Part 1. #abortion #womensrights #deconstruction #faith ♬ Pieces (Solo Piano Version) - Danilo Stankovic

@alwaysmorepodcast "When does life begin" according to Dr. Nathan Nobis. Part 2 #abortion #womensrights #deconstruction #faith ♬ Pieces (Solo Piano Version) - Danilo Stankovic

On The Always More Podcast, they discuss my article 'When does “life” begin? When it comes to abortion, it depends on what you mean by "life"':

 

Are embryos and beginning fetuses "innocent"?

'. . calling fetuses "innocent" assumes that they are persons: "innocence" implies the potential for guilt, and that's only true of persons. Nobody would refer to human eggs or tissue as "innocent," because nobody thinks these things are persons.' [update: this is from our AWARD WINNING essay!] 

Further discussion here on what kinds of things can be "innocent":

@nathan.nobis What is it to be "innocent"? A dialogue inspired by @dankprolifememes #abortion #prochoice #prolife #ethics #philosophy #criticalthinking #innocent #innocence #bioethics #innocenthumanlife ♬ original sound - Philosophy 101 - Prof. Nobis

@nathan.nobis What is it to be "innocent"? What if something is neither innocent nor not innocent? #abortion #ethics #philosophy #criticalthinking #bioethics #prochoice #prolife #innocent #innocence ♬ original sound - Philosophy 101 - Prof. Nobis

To be "innocent" something must (A) be able to do wrong and not do it or (B) to not have done anything wrong?

What's the better definition? Why?

Is there a better definition?

— Nathan Nobis . com (@NathanNobis) November 23, 2022

"Fetuses are human, so abortion is wrong."

Some quick notes on common arguments that result from what ordinary people say about these issues. 

1.      Fetuses are human.

2.      All humans are prima facie wrong to kill.

3.      So, abortion – killing fetuses – is prima facie wrong.

This argument disambiguates in at least two ways:

 

4.      Fetuses are biologically human organisms. (True).

5.      All biologically human organisms are prima facie wrong to kill. (Why think that?)

6.      So, abortion – killing fetuses – is prima facie wrong.

 

7.      Fetuses are human beings, i.e., feeling, perceiving, biologically human organisms. (False, if this means all fetuses, especially beginning ones).

8.      All human beings, i.e., feeling, perceiving, biologically human organisms are prima facie wrong to kill. (True)

9.      So, abortion – killing fetuses – is prima facie wrong.

 

 

Two logically invalid arguments: the premises do not lead to the conclusion due to using ‘human’ in two different meanings, or an “equivocation” on ‘human’:

 

10.  Fetuses are [merely] biologically human organisms. (True).

11.  All human beings, i.e., feeling, perceiving, biologically human organisms are prima facie wrong to kill. (True).

12.  So, abortion – killing fetuses – is prima facie wrong.

 

13.  Fetuses are human beings, i.e., feeling, perceiving, biologically human organisms. (False, if this means all fetuses, especially beginning ones).

14.  All [merely] biologically human organisms are prima facie wrong to kill. (Why think that?)

15.  So, abortion – killing fetuses – is prima facie wrong. 

On whether embryos and fetuses are "human," "humans, "human beings," "human organisms," whether each is "a human," a common anti-abortion concern:

• Are fetuses "human beings"? Biological versus psychological definitions
• Abortion and Ethics 101: An Introductory Overview
• Robert George: "Fetuses are human beings; all human beings are equal in dignity & worth; so abortion is wrong." Good or bad argument?
• "Fetuses are human, so abortion is wrong": what do you mean "human"?
• I’m a philosophy professor. The argument for making abortion illegal is illogical (at Salon)
• When does “life” begin? When it comes to abortion, it depends on what you mean by "life" (at Salon)
• Are embryos and beginning fetuses "innocent"?

Extremism, Abortion Extremism and Losing the Ability to Listen

There are many problems associated with extremism. 

One is that extremists generally lose the ability to listen to people who disagree with them: they become simply unable to know what other people think. 

This is really obvious to people with a philosophical background since philosophy is all about definitions: it's all about how people use words in different ways, how they mean different things using the same words since they have different definitions in mind. That's why one of the most important philosophical questions is, "What do you mean?"

This is especially relevant to ethical topics about abortion, where many of the key words are used in different ways by different people, resulting in different arguments: e.g, "life" and "alive" have multiple meanings, as do "human," "human being," and related words. 

Here are some thoughts about why extremists are unwilling and unable to listen. 

Listening to understand requires patience. Extremists have no patience for anyone who disagrees with them. 

Listening to understand involves thinking that other people are somewhat rational and that other people's views make some sense, even they are mistaken. But extremists think everyone who disagrees with them is an irrational idiot. 

Listening to understand seems to require thinking that you might learn something from other people. But extremists think they know it all, even though they rarely study the issues in fair and balanced ways. They deny the value of expertise and/or mistakenly assume they are experts, when they are not. 

Extremists have no motive for listening: you might listen to seek a compromise, or a solution that will acknowledge all important concerns. But extremists have no interest in compromise. 

Listening to understand involves recognizing that issues can be complicated, which is why there are different perspectives on them. Extremists deny this: they think the issues are simple and that they are obviously correct. 

Extremism typically involves "grandstanding" or showing off in front of your "tribe", to show that you are a true believer to the righteous cause. But listening to people you disagree with is contrary to that: to be in a position to listen to someone -- and for that person to speak in an authentic way -- there has to be some kind of respectful, friendly relationship, even for the moment. 

Extremism is bad. 

What is extremist anyway? 

Spencer Case argues that "a person is an extremist just in case an intense moral conviction blinds her to competing moral considerations, or else makes her unwilling to qualify her beliefs when she should." Since there are moral considerations to understanding views contrary to your own (like what?), the label "extremism" fits here, and extremism can be characterized by the above considerations (and many, many more!).

What are other ways extremism is bad?

What can be done about it?

A related post: 

• Moral Extremism and Abortion: On Pro-Choice "Extremists" 

@nathan.nobis extremism, abortion extremism and losing the ability to listen. #extremism #extremist #abortion #prochoice #prolife #polarization #polarizationisproblematic #ethics #philosophy #criticalthinking #listening #listeningskills ♬ original sound - Philosophy 101 - Prof. Nobis

extremism, abortion extremism and losing the ability to listen. #extremism #extremist #abortion #prochoice #prolife #polarization #polarizationisproblematic #ethics #philosophy #criticalthinking #listening #listeningskills