Sunday, February 23, 2025

Response to a comment on "If abortion is not wrong, then it's OK to kill sleeping or comatose people??!"

Someone posted a comment on another post "If abortion is not wrong, then it's OK to kill sleeping or comatose people??! Since the comment got divided in two, I am reposting it here: I will post the full comment and then responses in the text of the comment below:

Hi Dr Nobis,

My last two comments weren't approved, so I'll repost them.

Your principle is that "If a being is not conscious, and has never been conscious, then it's typically permissible to kill that being."

You seem to base this on the following two arguments:

Argument A

A1. A fetus is a human organism that does not currently contain a personal identity but will in the future.
A2. All human organisms that do not currently contain a personal identity but will in the future are typically permissible to kill.
A3. So, a fetus is typically permissible to kill.

Argument B (from the article "Does Abortion Harm the Fetus" on Utilitas, which you have referenced several times)

B1. A fetus is a human organism with a lifetime wellbeing that is currently unmeasurable but which will be measurable in the future.
- Supporting B1: Its lifetime wellbeing is unmeasurable because its current temporal wellbeing is unmeasurable.
B2. All human organisms with a lifetime wellbeing that is currently unmeasurable but which will be measurable in the future are typically permissible to kill.
B3. So, a fetus is typically permissible to kill.

However, neither of A2 or B2 are intuitive or well known moral principles, A2 is subject to counterexamples, and B1 seems untrue.

A2 is subject to the following counterexamples:
- a person who consumes a poison which induces total memory loss and a temporary coma.
- a baby born in a temporary coma.
- the common real world case of a baby that is born in respiratory distress then intubated and placed in an induced coma, which likely will experience retrograde amnesia upon waking up.

These counterexamples would lead many people to reject A2. If A2 were true, then it would be wrong of us to ban killing the humans involved (with the consent of their family members) and harvesting their organs to save other people, because we would be neglecting the pressing interests of humans that really do have interests and a right to life and banning a morally permissible action (you make a similar argument in your Salon article to argue that abortion restrictions are unjust). You write about theories of personal identity, but those are descriptive theories, not normative ones, and nothing about believing that a comatose human who has their memory wiped may be a new "person" after waking up entails believing they are also permissible to kill. 

B1 seems untrue because healthy functioning and good future prospects seem like components of wellbeing which can be measured. It seems that you can measure the current temporal wellbeing level of a sleeping or comatose person, and it can take a turn for better or for worse. I mean their current wellbeing, not their lifetime wellbeing. For example, a comatose person in ICU whose renal function is rapidly deteriorating and whose prospects for recovery are diminishing could be said to have deteriorating wellbeing, whilst a sleeping person who will wake up to good health in a few hours could be said to have a better state of wellbeing. The Utilitas article assumes that immediate consciousness is needed for wellbeing to be measurable at a given point in time, but many would dispute that, and nothing like a deductive proof for this position is offered by the authors. This is only one of many criticisms that could be levied at the article.

Because neither argument that you offer in support of your principle is definitive (or even seems persuasive), you can't reasonably exclude the significant possibility that most abortions are seriously wrong. There is no good reason to think that psychological connection to past experiences is needed for FLO to apply. That leads on to the following analogy which would support restricting abortions, even if you don't fully accept Marquis' argument.

1. Suppose you have multiple sclerosis and can press a button which will cure yourself of it, but there is a significant possibility that pressing the button will also kill your sleeping newborn baby, who you plan to give up for adoption.
2. It would be seriously wrong to press the button, even though doing so would cure you of a significant medical condition.
3. Most abortions are similar in relevant ways to the button case, because there is a significant possibility that killing a fetus is morally equivalent to killing a sleeping newborn baby.
4. So, most abortions are seriously wrong.

Responses in the text of the comment below at ###:

Hi Dr Nobis,

My last two comments weren't approved, so I'll repost them.

Your principle is that "If a being is not conscious, and has never been conscious, then it's typically permissible to kill that being."

You seem to base this on the following two arguments:

Argument A
A1. A fetus is a human organism that does not currently contain a personal identity but will in the future.

### It's very important that you specific an early, pre-conscious fetus. But, yes, such a mere body is not numerically identical with a person on psychological theories of personal identity, which are the most widely accepted views on these matters. 

I am going to observe that the phrase "contain a personal identity" is odd: you may want to be saying something about how something is (or is not) numerically identical to some future stage of that being or something like that. 

It's also important to note that it's not that a fetus will "contain" a person, so to speak, but that it usually can. If the fetus dies, it will not, but it could.

A2. All human organisms that do not currently contain a personal identity but will in the future are typically permissible to kill.

### Again, the "can" is important: if they are killed, then will not! So what's being said here is a bit incoherent: if killed, it will not be numerically identical to some future being, although it could have. 

A3. So, a fetus is typically permissible to kill.

### The basic idea here is just that an embryo is not a conscious subject and has not been, and so there's no experiencing being that has a quality of life that can take a turn for the worse or end; so there's no morally significant individual who can be harmed.  

Argument B (from the article "Does Abortion Harm the Fetus" on Utilitas, which you have referenced several times)
B1. A fetus is a human organism with a lifetime wellbeing that is currently unmeasurable but which will be measurable in the future.

### Again, the "can" is important: if the fetus is killed, then it will not!

- Supporting B1: Its lifetime wellbeing is unmeasurable because its current temporal wellbeing is unmeasurable.

### I am not sure what's going on here: "its current temporal wellbeing is unmeasurable" because there is no current wellbeing level: there's nothing to measure: it's not doing well, and not doing poorly either. And how is a "current temporal wellbeing" level different from a "current wellbeing" level? Is there a difference there?

B2. All human organisms with a lifetime wellbeing that is currently unmeasurable but which will be measurable in the future are typically permissible to kill.

### Again, the "can" is important: if they are killed, then will not!

B3. So, a fetus is typically permissible to kill.

### If this is intended to be a reconstruction of the main argument from that article, this does not  appear to be accurate or informative. 

However, neither of A2 or B2 are intuitive or well known moral principles, A2 is subject to counterexamples, and B1 seems untrue.

A2 [A2. All human organisms that do not currently contain a personal identity but will in the future are typically permissible to kill.] is subject to the following counterexamples:

### For what it's worth, I don't think these are good cases to test these principles with since--due to their controversial nature--- people's intuitions about them will likely be the same as their intuitions about, say, embryos. And the reasons they might give for their intuitions will likely be the same they'd give about their views on, say, embryos. 

- a person who consumes a poison which induces total memory loss and a temporary coma.

### I discussed such a case here -- https://academic.oup.com/jmp/article-abstract/36/3/261/895026?redirectedFrom=fulltext -- but this doesn't seem to be readily available anymore. 

Basically, this is a case where an adult, born person is basically "transformed" into something like an embryo, due to their total memory loss and so loss of any relation to the prior person that was "in" their body. So, whatever you think about embryos you'd say here, and so it's not a great case. 

- a baby born in a temporary coma.
- the common real world case of a baby that is born in respiratory distress then intubated and placed in an induced coma, which likely will experience retrograde amnesia upon waking up.

### Here was this discussion from 2021:

3. The "Comatose Newborn Baby" Objection

Finally, there's an objection that is based on a case like this:

A baby is born, in a coma. That baby has never been conscious. But that baby will become conscious . . eventually. 

The argument then is that if the "if a being is not conscious, and has never been conscious, then it's typically permissible to kill that being" principle is true, then it's not wrong to end the life of this baby. But since, they say, it would be wrong to end the life of this baby, the "if a being is not conscious, and has never been conscious, then it's typically permissible to kill that being" principle is false and so the original argument just isn't a good argument in defense of abortion.

I don't think this objection succeeds. 

First, the case is basically a unique baby that, for all practical purposes, is just like a beginning fetuses in all its relevant features: the claim is basically, "Killing fetuses that have never had minds is wrong because killing a born baby that has never had a mind would be wrong also" and so the reasoning is close to circular. In that way, the argument is question-begging, or assumes that the principle it is trying to argue against is false in making a case that it's false, if the reasoning amounts to something like this:

This "if a being is not conscious, and has never been conscious, then it's typically permissible to kill that being" principle is false because there could be this comotose "baby" and even though that baby is not conscious, and has never been conscious, that "baby" would be wrong to kill. 

If this is the reaction, it basically amounts to just assuming the principle is false.  

Next, the reactions to the case that it would be wrong to led this never-been-conscious baby die, or kill this baby, are, I think, emotion-driven: people picture in their minds a more normal babywho would be wrong to kill, since that baby is conscious, aware and has feelingsand those feelings transfer to this "baby," which is nothing like a normal baby, even though they really shouldn't transfer. And this emotional distortion can lead people to overlook these important questions:

  • Would anyone be harmed if the "baby" were killed? 
    • No, there is no conscious individual here who would be made worse off, compared to how they were, if this body were killed: this case is very different from killing a normal baby since, again, this baby is just like an early fetus, just bigger and born.  
  • Would any person be killed if the "baby" were killed? 
    • No, there is no conscious individual here who would be killed, although killing this body would prevent the emergence of a future person. 
So, again, the case does not provide a good reason to reject this type of pro-choice argument: it seems to just assume that what it's arguing against is false, instead of giving a reason that the principle is false (and a reason which doesn't just assume it's false).   

Next, the case is very different from abortion, so one could agree that it'd be wrong to let the "baby" die but deny that anything follows about abortion.  

For one, the comatose newborn "baby" is no longer dependent on anyone in particular, and anyone's body in particular: anyone could take care of this baby. So, one could plausibly think that, all things considered, this matters and makes a difference: yes, someone, or someones, has to take care of this "baby," given the situation, but pregnant women are not obligated to "take care of" pre-conscious fetuses that are in their bodies and so only they can take care of them: that's too much of a burden which they don't have to take on if they don't want to. 

It is a fair question, however, to ask about details about the case: in particular, how long would it take for the baby to become conscious? What if it's 50 years? 80 years? Does that matter? Inquiring minds would want to know. Maybe there'd be a point where people would concede that the time is too much and so the lack of harm here really does matter and so it'd also matter with a shorter time period too. 

Next, I think it's important to observe that this "baby" is quite different from a beginning fetus in that it is, as the case is intended, very close to being conscious. And maybe that's an important difference. It's like this:

Suppose I've been studying to get into law school, and I'm doing well, but this is very much because of your help in keeping me on track, encouraging me, quizzing me, and more: I literally couldn't do it without you. You've been helping me for years now, and I've almost made it, since the LSAT (test to get into law school) is in a month and I will do well if, but only if, you keep helping me. 

Now, it's within your rights to stop helping me, even if I lose out on my dream of going to law school. But shouldn't you keep helping me, unless there's some real good reason why you shouldn't (like I become mean or ungrateful or ..)? I mean, we've come this far; let's finish this! If you had backed out on all this years ago, that'd be one thing, but we're almost to the end here! Let's finish this so I can make my dream come true!

If this case has a moral or a point (and maybe it doesn't!) then it might transfer to the comatose baby—since that baby body is almost conscious and so maybe there is some obligation at this point to make that happen. That intuition, however, won't transfer to a beginning fetus. 

So, all and all, the "comatose newborn baby" objection is not a good one, given the differences and the similarities between this "baby" and beginning fetuses and pregnant women. 

####

These counterexamples would lead many people to reject A2 [ [A2. All human organisms that do not currently contain a personal identity but will {update: CAN} in the future are typically permissible to kill.].

### Well, the big question here about these (hard?) cases is what sort of reasons can be given for them to support anyone's intuitive judgements. 

If A2 were true, then it would be wrong of us to ban killing the humans involved (with the consent of their family members) and harvesting their organs to save other people, because we would be neglecting the pressing interests of humans that really do have interests and a right to life and banning a morally permissible action (you make a similar argument in your Salon article to argue that abortion restrictions are unjust). You write about theories of personal identity, but those are descriptive theories, not normative ones, and nothing about believing that a comatose human who has their memory wiped may be a new "person" after waking up entails believing they are also permissible to kill. 

### Yes, it's correct that observing that the standard reasons why it's wrong to, say, kill sleeping people do not apply in these cases does not entail that it's OK to kill these beings. But no thoughtful person would claim that: again, they'd observe that the standard reasons don't apply and then ask if there are other reasons to think that such killings would be wrong. Either such reasons can be identified or not. If not, one might think that this judgment isn't supported: it's a mere intuition, but not one that can be supported by good reasons. 


B1 seems untrue because healthy functioning and good future prospects seem like components of wellbeing which can be measured. It seems that you can measure the current temporal wellbeing level of a sleeping or comatose person, and it can take a turn for better or for worse. I mean their current wellbeing, not their lifetime wellbeing. For example, a comatose person in ICU whose renal function is rapidly deteriorating and whose prospects for recovery are diminishing could be said to have deteriorating wellbeing, whilst a sleeping person who will wake up to good health in a few hours could be said to have a better state of wellbeing.

### OK. And these cases differ from, say, an embryo how? The most obvious answer is that what happens to these bodies matters because of how it's going to affect the person--the person who was and, we hope, will continue existing. 

The Utilitas article assumes that immediate consciousness is needed for wellbeing to be measurable at a given point in time,

### I don't know about that: everyone knows that human people sleep and so all discussions of these topics should be able to accommodate this obvious fact.

but many would dispute that, and nothing like a deductive proof

### I am not sure why you are seeking (deductive) "proofs" here: do any arguments given about controversial ethical and philosophical issues amount to "proofs"? 

for this position is offered by the authors. This is only one of many criticisms that could be levied at the article.

### Perhaps you should write up a careful reply article.

Because neither argument that you offer in support of your principle is definitive (or even seems persuasive), you can't reasonably exclude the significant possibility that most abortions are seriously wrong. There is no good reason to think that psychological connection to past experiences is needed for FLO to apply.

### Well, you are saying there's no good reason here based on some judgments about some controversial and potentially genuinely hard cases. And these are cases that, while people have intuitive judgments about them, those judgments are not super easy to justify anyway, on any more theoretical views (including, say, so called "substance" views), especially without leading to other judgments that are not intuitive to many people. 

That leads on to the following analogy which would support restricting abortions, even if you don't fully accept Marquis' argument.

1. Suppose you have multiple sclerosis and can press a button which will cure yourself of it, but there is a significant possibility that pressing the button will also kill your sleeping newborn baby, who you plan to give up for adoption.
2. It would be seriously wrong to press the button, even though doing so would cure you of a significant medical condition.
3. Most abortions are similar in relevant ways to the button case, because there is a significant possibility that killing a fetus is morally equivalent to killing a sleeping newborn baby.
4. So, most abortions are seriously wrong.

### I don't see this as a very relevant analogous case, but I am going to suggest that you run this by other people to get their reactions. I do, suggest, that you explain why these cases might be relevantly similar. I do think that being cautious makes good sense, but I do think that people  often don't accept that in a serious, consistent way: see Abortion, Animals, & the Precautionary Principle

### OK, this is some response. I hope it helps!

Don Marquis on abortion: the "future like ours" argument

Don Marquis on abortion: the "future like ours" argument:


@nathan.nobis The best argument against abortion: Don Marquis's "Future like our's" argument. #abortion #prochoice #prochoiceisprowomen #prolife #bioethics #ethics #philosophy #philosophytok ♬ original sound - Philosophy 101 - Prof. Nobis




More here:

1000-Word Philosophy:

4. Valuable Futures?

Abortion might seem to prevent a fetus from experiencing its valuable future, just like killing us does, even if it is not yet a person.6 But our futures might be valuable, in part, because we can, presently, look forward to them. Fetuses have no awareness of their futures whatsoever, and this is one important difference between their futures and our futures.

Further, an egg-and-a-sperm-that-would-fertilize-it arguably has a future akin to that of a fetus. Contraception (even by abstinence!) keeps this future from materializing.7 But contraception and abstinence aren’t wrong. Thus, it is not wrong to perform some action that prevents such a future from materializing.

Thinking Critically About Abortion:

5.1.5 Abortion prevents fetuses from experiencing their valuable futures


The argument against abortion that is likely most-discussed by philosophers comes from philosopher Don Marquis.[14] He argues that it is wrong to kill us, typical adults and children, because it deprives us from experiencing our (expected to be) valuable futures, which is a great loss to us. He argues that since fetuses also have valuable futures (“futures like ours” he calls them), they are also wrong to kill. His argument has much to recommend it, but there are reasons to doubt it as well.

First, fetuses don’t seem to have futures like our futures, since—as they are pre-conscious—they are entirely psychologically disconnected from any future experiences: there is no (even broken) chain of experiences from the fetus to that future person’s experiences. Babies are, at least, aware of the current moment, which leads to the next moment; children and adults think about and plan for their futures, but fetuses cannot do these things, being completely unconscious and without a mind.

Second, this fact might even mean that the early fetus doesn’t literally have a future: if your future couldn’t include you being a merely physical, non-conscious object (e.g., you couldn’t be a corpse: if there’s a corpse, you are gone), then non-conscious physical objects, like a fetus, couldn’t literally be a future person.[15] If this is correct, early fetuses don’t even have futures, much less futures like ours. Something would have a future, like ours, only when there is someone there to be psychologically connected to that future: that someone arrives later in pregnancy, after when most abortions occur.

A third objection is more abstract and depends on the “metaphysics” of objects. It begins with the observation that there are single objects with parts with space between them. Indeed almost every object is like this, if you could look close enough: it’s not just single dinette sets, since there is literally some space between the parts of most physical objects. From this, it follows that there seem to be single objects such as an-egg-and-the-sperm-that-would-fertilize-it. And these would also seem to have a future of value, given how Marquis describes this concept. (It should be made clear that sperm and eggs alone do not have futures of value, and Marquis does not claim they do: this is not the objection here). The problem is that contraception, even by abstinence, prevents that thing’s future of value from materializing, and so seems to be wrong when we use Marquis’s reasoning. Since contraception is not wrong, but his general premise suggests that it is, it seems that preventing something from experiencing its valuable future isn’t always wrong and so Marquis’s argument appears to be unsound.[16]



Tuesday, February 18, 2025

Are Fetuses "Innocent Human Beings"?

 An excellent discussion by Lane Taylor! See here for better formatting; the cut and paste didn't work so well here:

https://responsiblethinker.substack.com/p/are-fetuses-innocent-human-beings